It was the darkest of days, no doubt about it. The fact that because it was late November, it was evening by 6:00 PM, made it somehow darker.
It was talked about at the time, and it's probably been written about, that when The White House Press Office issued a statement in early November listing the President's coming itinerary in Texas, …
It was the darkest of days, no doubt about it. The fact that because it was late November, it was evening by 6:00 PM, made it somehow darker.
It was talked about at the time, and it's probably been written about, that when The White House Press Office issued a statement in early November listing the President's coming itinerary in Texas, people in the United States and well wishers abroad had a foreboding about Dallas' being on the list.
My parents and I ( I was 11 ) had the same reaction. So help me, the following is true: at breakfast on that Friday morning, I said to my mother that Kennedy was in Dallas that day and I hoped nobody would try to shoot him.
As I say, there was no small amount of foreboding in millions of people. The Secret Service was jittery. They were also hungover, having been up until 5 AM partying in Fort Worth, which disgusting fact was by gentlemen's agreement with the press not gone into.
If you google Kennedy assassination Altgens photo, you'll see a photo you've probably seen before. It was taken between the time Kennedy was hit in the neck and the head shot. You can see that of the four Secret Service agents on the running board of the backup limo, only Clint Hill is looking ahead at the presidential limo. The others are looking behind them, knowing instinctively that the shot had come from behind.
The best analysis now suggests strongly that as many as ten seconds elapsed between the first shot and the head shot. It's hard for me not to wonder if a Secret Service which wasn't hungover might have reacted correctly.
Do you remember Criswell, of Criswell Predicts fame? He was the supposed psychic who made what seem to have been deliberately absurd predictions. I learned yesterday that in May, 1963, he predicted that Kennedy wouldn't be a candidate for reelection in 1964 because of a "mishap" which would befall him in November. Isn't that weird?
Plenty of weirdness is associated with that day for a lot of people. That year, I was in 6th grade, and did school patrol at 2 PM for the under 3rd grade crowd. The kid who was my patrol partner that year and I had learned about the assassination a half hour earlier, and were talking about it, of course.There was no traffic that afternoon.
In the late 1970s, he was sent to prison for something like thirty years for having struck and killed a child while intoxicated.
Yes, it was indeed a dark time. I wasn’t aware of all those forebodings about Dallas or if I was I don’t remember it now. That’s amazing that you had that premonition, especially so young.
I saw a documentary based on a book about the killing of JFK arguing that it was a Secret Service man who shot Kennedy. He raised his gun and lost his balance when the car jumped forward, and fired into Kennedy. This particular documentary that I saw actually identified the Secret Service person in question. You’re right they were all hung over from partying the night before . Which was insane if there were legitimate worries about Kennedy going to Dallas. The documentary said there was no way from the position that Oswald was in that he could’ve made those shots in that succession and also that different bullets were found, i.e. bullets came from different guns. The author of the documentary built a complete replica of the shooting, and they timed the shots. They had a train system for the position of the car, its traveling speed and the height of the position of Oswald, and only one of the sharpshooters they hired could achieve those shots in that succession from that angle After three tries. So the argument was there was more than one shooter, the other shooter being the Secret Service guy.
JFK’s body being flown from Dallas to Washington and the big fight with the Dallas hospital doctors who wanted to do the autopsy in Dallas are very suspicious to me. Also, are you aware that RFK Jr. talked to Tucker about his father‘s shooting and said that there was another gun involved in that too—not just the gun of Sirhan Sirhan—in other words, RFK was also shot by more than one person.
Vero, I recommend the following to you, both on YouTube:
1. LEMMiNO - that's the name of the channel. He is, as he says of himself, a Swedish guy in his twenties who enjoys making videos. His latest is an approximately ninety minute long graphic analysis of the assassination. It's the most astonishing thing of its kind I've ever seen. If you want to know what happened in those seconds, and how it happened, watch that video.
2. Sean Munger - Munger is a credentialed historian. His two part, approximately three hour long analysis of the conspiracy hypotheses is brilliant.
The Howard Donahue/Bonar Menninger idea, that the Secret Service agent lost control of his BAR and accidentally discharged the shot which hit Kennedy in the head, hasn't been discredited, it's been thumpingly, sliced 'n' diced discredited.
I lost the enthusiasm I'd had for RFK, Jr., when I read that he believes that a second gunman was involved in the death of his father. I don't want someone that irrational in the Presidency.
Isn't it odd, Vero, that in that packed kitchen, in which Sirhan had to stand on a table to fire his shots, not one person saw a second shooter?
His father didn't believe that the CIA had killed Jack. Of course, that doesn't mean that there wasn't another shooter in his own assassination five years later.
Kennedy assassination hypotheses - both Kennedys - melt into nothing if subjected to scrutiny. Not only could Oswald have made the shots, I, at 11, probably could have made them. Have you ever been to Dealey Plaza? It's bizarre that in photos and film it seems as large as it does. It's compact, small, really.
If you want a book which is an excellent analysis of the JFK assassination, I recommend Gerald Posner's painstaking, "Case Closed."
There are some loose ends in the JFK assassination which no one can explain, the Sylvia Odio matter being foremost. I think Posner delves into it in his book. I know that Vincent Bugliosi does in his astounding book, "Reclaiming History." ( That book is 1,500 pages long! ) Bugliosi doesn't think it's significant, however, nor does the author of the remarkable book, "Oswald's Game," whose name I think is Jean Davies. ( I read it several years ago. It's a brilliant book, showing what one thoughtful, diligent person, working alone, can achieve. )
The other thing which was inexcusable was the FBI agent's destroying the note Oswald had hand delivered to FBI headquarters in Dallas about a month earlier.
It seems that nothing ever gets tied up completely in life. Maddening but true. And yes, coincidences: do they mean anything? What about precognitive dreams? I had a dream in 1977 when jarred me awake. It made no sense at all for the next thirty - five years. Then, in 2012, something happened to me which validated the shocking dream I'd had thirty - five years earlier.
What's the line? "There are more things in Heaven and on Earth than your science can explain, Horatio."
Yes, great comment from Hamlet—“there are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamed of In your philosophy, Horatio”’(I think that’s correct ?), and I also love this one: “Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day.”
I also have had precognitive dreams. Dreams that showed what was going to come but I couldn’t interpret it until after the event had happened. I’ve also had one or two very powerful dreams that changed my life. Makes you wonder where they come from.
You obviously know much more about this than I do but from the little I know I can tell that the so-called authorities really dropped the ball on the JFK killing. It’s as if they were beyond stupid and incompetent or so complacently relaxed in their day-to-day jobs that they were on auto pilot and couldn’t cope when something out of the norm happened. Our government is a pretty shoddy enterprise in spite of all the money that’s put into it but it’s run by humans so what can you expect?
One thing conspiracists like to point to is Ruby's shooting of Oswald. It looks like a hit if you don't know that Ruby was as much a fixture at the Dallas Police Department as Norm was at Cheers. He catered to Dallas cops because they were good customers for his strip club. In fact, if you go carefully over video of the police station that Friday evening, who should you spot in the crowd? Why, it's Jack Ruby.
That having been said, as someone who grew up in Texas, I offer here an example of how backward Texas was: Houston didn't have a citywide ambulance service until 1972. Before then, emergency calls were handled by the city's funeral homes. Yes, that's right, Houston didn't have ambulances, it had hearses, for three years after NASA had sent several crews to the moon.
I could fill two more paragraphs, at least, with examples of police cluelessness in Texas as late as the mid 70s. Just unbelievable dumbness. To somewhat alter an aphorism, never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity.
That is an amazing aphorism. And very true. Hard to believe that Houston was that backward back in 1970. I have never been to Texas except the airport Dallas Fort Worth. Since getting into these discussions with you and a few other people on Sasha’s site, I’ve been going back into this area of time of the 60’s-70’s, the anti-war movement, and how it evolved and devolved. And I came across this old professor of mine at University of Michigan called Frithjof Bergmann. Unfortunately, he passed away two years ago at the age of 90, but now I’m watching him online and it turns out he developed this whole new theory called New Work. I’m listening to a lecture he gave in Germany in German, but it has captions that you can get in English. He was a very cool guy. See link to one of a Series about the 60s, talks about Kent State, Frithjof Bergmann is one of the speakers!
It was the darkest of days, no doubt about it. The fact that because it was late November, it was evening by 6:00 PM, made it somehow darker.
It was talked about at the time, and it's probably been written about, that when The White House Press Office issued a statement in early November listing the President's coming itinerary in Texas, people in the United States and well wishers abroad had a foreboding about Dallas' being on the list.
My parents and I ( I was 11 ) had the same reaction. So help me, the following is true: at breakfast on that Friday morning, I said to my mother that Kennedy was in Dallas that day and I hoped nobody would try to shoot him.
As I say, there was no small amount of foreboding in millions of people. The Secret Service was jittery. They were also hungover, having been up until 5 AM partying in Fort Worth, which disgusting fact was by gentlemen's agreement with the press not gone into.
If you google Kennedy assassination Altgens photo, you'll see a photo you've probably seen before. It was taken between the time Kennedy was hit in the neck and the head shot. You can see that of the four Secret Service agents on the running board of the backup limo, only Clint Hill is looking ahead at the presidential limo. The others are looking behind them, knowing instinctively that the shot had come from behind.
The best analysis now suggests strongly that as many as ten seconds elapsed between the first shot and the head shot. It's hard for me not to wonder if a Secret Service which wasn't hungover might have reacted correctly.
Do you remember Criswell, of Criswell Predicts fame? He was the supposed psychic who made what seem to have been deliberately absurd predictions. I learned yesterday that in May, 1963, he predicted that Kennedy wouldn't be a candidate for reelection in 1964 because of a "mishap" which would befall him in November. Isn't that weird?
Plenty of weirdness is associated with that day for a lot of people. That year, I was in 6th grade, and did school patrol at 2 PM for the under 3rd grade crowd. The kid who was my patrol partner that year and I had learned about the assassination a half hour earlier, and were talking about it, of course.There was no traffic that afternoon.
In the late 1970s, he was sent to prison for something like thirty years for having struck and killed a child while intoxicated.
Yes, it was indeed a dark time. I wasn’t aware of all those forebodings about Dallas or if I was I don’t remember it now. That’s amazing that you had that premonition, especially so young.
I saw a documentary based on a book about the killing of JFK arguing that it was a Secret Service man who shot Kennedy. He raised his gun and lost his balance when the car jumped forward, and fired into Kennedy. This particular documentary that I saw actually identified the Secret Service person in question. You’re right they were all hung over from partying the night before . Which was insane if there were legitimate worries about Kennedy going to Dallas. The documentary said there was no way from the position that Oswald was in that he could’ve made those shots in that succession and also that different bullets were found, i.e. bullets came from different guns. The author of the documentary built a complete replica of the shooting, and they timed the shots. They had a train system for the position of the car, its traveling speed and the height of the position of Oswald, and only one of the sharpshooters they hired could achieve those shots in that succession from that angle After three tries. So the argument was there was more than one shooter, the other shooter being the Secret Service guy.
JFK’s body being flown from Dallas to Washington and the big fight with the Dallas hospital doctors who wanted to do the autopsy in Dallas are very suspicious to me. Also, are you aware that RFK Jr. talked to Tucker about his father‘s shooting and said that there was another gun involved in that too—not just the gun of Sirhan Sirhan—in other words, RFK was also shot by more than one person.
Vero, I recommend the following to you, both on YouTube:
1. LEMMiNO - that's the name of the channel. He is, as he says of himself, a Swedish guy in his twenties who enjoys making videos. His latest is an approximately ninety minute long graphic analysis of the assassination. It's the most astonishing thing of its kind I've ever seen. If you want to know what happened in those seconds, and how it happened, watch that video.
2. Sean Munger - Munger is a credentialed historian. His two part, approximately three hour long analysis of the conspiracy hypotheses is brilliant.
The Howard Donahue/Bonar Menninger idea, that the Secret Service agent lost control of his BAR and accidentally discharged the shot which hit Kennedy in the head, hasn't been discredited, it's been thumpingly, sliced 'n' diced discredited.
I lost the enthusiasm I'd had for RFK, Jr., when I read that he believes that a second gunman was involved in the death of his father. I don't want someone that irrational in the Presidency.
Isn't it odd, Vero, that in that packed kitchen, in which Sirhan had to stand on a table to fire his shots, not one person saw a second shooter?
His father didn't believe that the CIA had killed Jack. Of course, that doesn't mean that there wasn't another shooter in his own assassination five years later.
Kennedy assassination hypotheses - both Kennedys - melt into nothing if subjected to scrutiny. Not only could Oswald have made the shots, I, at 11, probably could have made them. Have you ever been to Dealey Plaza? It's bizarre that in photos and film it seems as large as it does. It's compact, small, really.
If you want a book which is an excellent analysis of the JFK assassination, I recommend Gerald Posner's painstaking, "Case Closed."
Thanks, Bobby, for the references—will check them out. This was the film I saw:
https://youtu.be/s5_Fw-ewClc?si=0KxJvPhr6fT34hM0
It was very convincing. Have you seen it?
It’s beyond strange that those two murders of such prominent leaders are shrouded in controversy for so damn long!
Thank you! I will look at it.
There are some loose ends in the JFK assassination which no one can explain, the Sylvia Odio matter being foremost. I think Posner delves into it in his book. I know that Vincent Bugliosi does in his astounding book, "Reclaiming History." ( That book is 1,500 pages long! ) Bugliosi doesn't think it's significant, however, nor does the author of the remarkable book, "Oswald's Game," whose name I think is Jean Davies. ( I read it several years ago. It's a brilliant book, showing what one thoughtful, diligent person, working alone, can achieve. )
The other thing which was inexcusable was the FBI agent's destroying the note Oswald had hand delivered to FBI headquarters in Dallas about a month earlier.
It seems that nothing ever gets tied up completely in life. Maddening but true. And yes, coincidences: do they mean anything? What about precognitive dreams? I had a dream in 1977 when jarred me awake. It made no sense at all for the next thirty - five years. Then, in 2012, something happened to me which validated the shocking dream I'd had thirty - five years earlier.
What's the line? "There are more things in Heaven and on Earth than your science can explain, Horatio."
Yes, great comment from Hamlet—“there are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamed of In your philosophy, Horatio”’(I think that’s correct ?), and I also love this one: “Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day.”
I also have had precognitive dreams. Dreams that showed what was going to come but I couldn’t interpret it until after the event had happened. I’ve also had one or two very powerful dreams that changed my life. Makes you wonder where they come from.
You obviously know much more about this than I do but from the little I know I can tell that the so-called authorities really dropped the ball on the JFK killing. It’s as if they were beyond stupid and incompetent or so complacently relaxed in their day-to-day jobs that they were on auto pilot and couldn’t cope when something out of the norm happened. Our government is a pretty shoddy enterprise in spite of all the money that’s put into it but it’s run by humans so what can you expect?
One thing conspiracists like to point to is Ruby's shooting of Oswald. It looks like a hit if you don't know that Ruby was as much a fixture at the Dallas Police Department as Norm was at Cheers. He catered to Dallas cops because they were good customers for his strip club. In fact, if you go carefully over video of the police station that Friday evening, who should you spot in the crowd? Why, it's Jack Ruby.
That having been said, as someone who grew up in Texas, I offer here an example of how backward Texas was: Houston didn't have a citywide ambulance service until 1972. Before then, emergency calls were handled by the city's funeral homes. Yes, that's right, Houston didn't have ambulances, it had hearses, for three years after NASA had sent several crews to the moon.
I could fill two more paragraphs, at least, with examples of police cluelessness in Texas as late as the mid 70s. Just unbelievable dumbness. To somewhat alter an aphorism, never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity.
That is an amazing aphorism. And very true. Hard to believe that Houston was that backward back in 1970. I have never been to Texas except the airport Dallas Fort Worth. Since getting into these discussions with you and a few other people on Sasha’s site, I’ve been going back into this area of time of the 60’s-70’s, the anti-war movement, and how it evolved and devolved. And I came across this old professor of mine at University of Michigan called Frithjof Bergmann. Unfortunately, he passed away two years ago at the age of 90, but now I’m watching him online and it turns out he developed this whole new theory called New Work. I’m listening to a lecture he gave in Germany in German, but it has captions that you can get in English. He was a very cool guy. See link to one of a Series about the 60s, talks about Kent State, Frithjof Bergmann is one of the speakers!
https://youtu.be/pGeFPzFNkQg